29. Interview with Author and Book Coach, Liisa Kovala

In this episode Suzy speaks with Author and book coach Liisa Kovala about her journey and her books, but also what she's seeing as she collates stories of women writers in her podcast, Women Writing. 

What are our unique challenges and opportunities as women when we're young, when we're middle aged and aging? Lisa and I are going to have a frank discussion about the ups and downs that you're not going to want to miss

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Transcript

0:49

Welcome to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vadori, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction, nonfiction, that are going to wow your readers broken down step by step. We're going to explore writing techniques. I'm going to show you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writers careers that you wouldn't have access to otherwise. And I'm also going to coach writers live on their pages so that you can learn and transform your own storytelling. Whether you're just starting out, you're drafting your first book, you're editing, or you're currently rewriting that book, or maybe even your tenth book, this show's gonna help you unlock the writing skills that you didn't even know you needed, but you definitely do. So looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas from your mind onto your pages in an exciting way for both you and your readers so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams and you're going to also have some fun doing it. Let's dive in. Today I am thrilled to have with me Lisa Kovala. She is a Finnish Canadian author, a colleague of mine as a fellow author accelerator certified book coach, and she's also a former high school English teacher. Today, I'm super excited to talk with Lisa about her journey and her books, but also what she's seeing as she collates stories of women writers in her podcast, Women Writing. What are our unique challenges and opportunities as women when we're young, when we're middle aged and aging? Lisa and I are going to have a frank discussion about the ups and downs that you're not going to want to miss. She is the author of Surviving Struthof, My Father's Memories Behind the Death Gate, which is a family memoir published by Latitude 46 in 2017. Lisa actually first self published that book and later got it picked up by Traditional Publishing, which is the Holy Grail and not very common. She's going to talk a little bit about that. And her debut novel came out in 2022, which is Sisu's Winter War. Which Sisu is a concept, which is a Finnish word that means grit and determination, and something that Lisa teaches, and we talk about that as well in this episode. She also writes short stories and creative non fiction and has been published in a variety of anthologies and literary magazines. She hosts writer's retreats, she can be found on Substack, and she also has her podcast, so go check out Women Writing Podcast. The link to that is in the show notes. She is the perfect combo of tough love, compassion, and proven strategies when coaching writers, serving women who want to write a novel or memoir, but are struggling with finding time and the energy to do it all by themselves. She's a huge advocate for finding joy in writing and filling your creative well so that you can serve others. All right. Oh, welcome, Lisa. I am so excited to finally have you on the Show Don't Tell Writing podcast. Aw, thanks, Susie. I'm so delighted to be here. Yeah, I mean, we've been talking for a while now because you have just launched your podcast, which is all about women in writing, and I'm just so intrigued. By that topic, I'm like, Lisa, please come on, talk about women writing. I have a lot of women in my audience, but I think even for men, it's pretty interesting to know why, what compelled you to launch a podcast and to start a whole platform on the topic of women? What was it? What's going on? For sure. Well, I don't know. Exactly why I decided to do that. But I am the youngest of four kids and I'm the only girl. So I've been surrounded by men growing up and maybe I really longed for a sister. I don't know. This is getting to the psychological background, but I think that's what we're doing in showtime. So that's right. I don't like We peel back the layers and we show them. Yeah, we show them behind the behind the scenes. It's all right. But I think really I was interested in how women's experiences are actually different, I think, from men's experiences. And a lot of the advice I received as sort of a younger person and as a writer, When I was studying, we're often, you know, kind of dead white guys who said certain things and I thought that doesn't work for me and it made me feel bad about myself. Like things like write every day. It just didn't fit into my life as a, um, as a young person, as a, as a mom, as a, you know, a full time teacher, those things just didn't happen. And then I just thought, well, I'm not a real writer because I'm not writing every day. Oh, right. Every day. Yeah. Right. Every day is one of those things that you'll hear me say it again and again and again. I mean, it's great advice while it works for you. And what I find is writers who come to me. Who've taken that advice and are so proud. They've done it for a year. They've done it for two years. And then one day they can't, women or men, one day they can't and they feel terrible about it. And they never go back to it and they feel like a failure. And I just think, I mean, get some writing habits. That's my best advice, like get some habits, whatever those are, but yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about the differences between women and men and, and how we fit it into our lives and how we view it. But, but definitely, uh, that one, the podcast came out of the newsletter. So I started the newsletter maybe a year, maybe almost a year and a half ago. I just wanted to feature women who are doing the work of writing. And who were, you know, putting themselves out there either as self published or traditionally published writers to give other women support and encouragement advice and all of those things. And so I've been doing that for a year and a half and, you know, every week I looked forward to reading and editing these pieces because I, I learned so much every time, right? Every, you know, somebody has something that resonates with me, something else, maybe not as much and some other reader will, it'll resonate for them. So the podcast sort of came out of that newsletter. And then I also wanted to speak to industry professionals who could give us some more. background information that will help us in this sort of writing endeavor because it's, you know, such a learning curve and we're all at different stages of that process. And so if I can encourage some women to just keep doing it, great. That would be wonderful. Oh, amazing. I love that. I love that goal. What did you find? So you've had the chance, you've been doing this a while, you've had the chance to interview some of your idols. I mean, that's why I do a lot of things. That's why I'm having you on here. Right? Like I can learn. So, so. What is it that you've noticed in terms of a trend or their sort of patterns that you see when you talk to women about what it's like to be a writer? Like, give us some insight. Yeah. So, so one of the first questions I ask is just about when and where women write. So I'm sort of interested in the spaces we have, you know, I have this, this office area where I have a computer and I have a desk and I, you know, I'm kind of fortunate to have this space that I really enjoy, but I don't even write here a lot. I'll do other kinds of work here. I'll do, you know, I'll have a client meetings or I will do editing here, but when I'm writing, I kind of want to be on a couch or on this. comfy chairs, some other space that feels really cozy and I'm noticing that that's really true of most of the writers who respond about these spaces. There's this aspiration to have the perfect office space. And that somehow that's like that would be magic and then I could write. But the truth is people who have those perfect, beautiful, lovely spaces often don't even use them. They're somewhere else. Yeah, right. comfy chair somewhere. And so it's just interesting, or even the kinds of work they do happens in different places. So like I say, I I'll edit here, but I will proofread elsewhere. I will write fresh pages somewhere else. And so it's just finding those comfort zones, those places where certain kinds of work and your brain kind of works with that environment. I think that's kind of important not to feel like, oh, if I had this kind of space, then I'll be a writer, then I'll get the pages done. Yeah, and I think it's not unlike You know, when I first started working from home, and it was long before the pandemic, but or people that I know that started working from home in a day job during the pandemic that say, oh, my gosh, it's really hard to get work done because I know there's laundry and there's dishes and there's all the things it's kind of like that for me now as well when I have a workspace. Where I have to edit other people's work, right? And I have emails to respond to, and a podcast to produce, and all those other parts of my job. And writing is arguably the most amazing part of our jobs, right? And it feels like a luxury. Yeah. And so I have to almost leave there. I actually write fresh pages at a coffee shop, um, or a bar and noisy space, which is crazy. And then somehow the editing feels more like work. And so I can do that back at my workspace. Yeah. It's interesting. A lot of coffee shops. Uh, environment that kind of being able to tune out the background sounds. And for me, often leaving the house to go there, that's the only reason I'm going that and maybe coffee or a Thai latte. Right? Like that's all I'm doing there. I'm not doing any other kind of work. So you kind of flip your brain to say, this is why I'm here. I had, I was speaking to a writer yesterday and he said. He will put on coffee shop sounds in his office to get the ambiance of it so that he feels like in that kind of zone in that headspace, which I thought was really interesting. It's amazing, yeah, because I don't listen to music ever when I'm, I used to somehow, I don't know how I did this. I used to somehow watch television and write or like when I was working full time and I'd be tired and I'd kind of have my laptop open while I'm watching. My favorite shows. I don't do that anymore because I take it much more seriously, but I think it just introduces way too many hairs. But yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Maybe it's just the background noise. And if you can tune it out, then maybe that's okay. Especially maybe on an early draft later, you probably don't want to do that as much, but yeah, I see what you're saying. I can watch TV if I'm doing something that's a little bit more mindless, like. Creating things on Canva, you know, just something creative, but not too stressful. I can have the TV on in the background. That works for me. Yeah, absolutely. I love television, by the way. People ask me what my hobbies are and I'm like, embarrassed to say that watching television. I mean, I'm somebody who consumes story in every format. Like I'm obsessed with story and I will binge watch things and it's not like a mindless thing for me. I'm like parsing it through and, and evaluating it. And, um, I think it actually helps. Do you do that, Susie? Oh my gosh. Yeah, I actually did a recent episode on dialogue and I have an article coming out about it. So I've been thinking about a lot how I give advice on dialogue, and I'm noticing that when I watch television shows, it's different than in a book. And so just noticing how that's, how that's different and how the advice that I'm giving and people are so influenced by television, we don't realize that some of that doesn't work in a book. No, no. So, before we hit record here, we were talking a little bit about age, because I shared with you that I was going to hit my 50th episode, this is the first time I'm going to be announcing it publicly, when I turn 50 this year, the week, actually, the week to the day, and it wasn't on purpose, but we're going to do it and celebrate 50. And, you know, like, what age of women are you finding are wanting to talk about this writing business? Right? Like, I like to think people think I'm younger. I work with a lot of women in middle age, right? Like, who are just kind of figuring this thing out. What does that mean for what does age mean to you? Yeah, so a couple things about that. One is the women I'm seeing are often sort of mid career and later or have left their careers or retired and they're coming into it at various times, but so many of them have already. You know, been in love with writing since they were children, as many of us were right. And they've delayed and delayed and delayed. And then it's like, okay, when am I going to start this? And so for me, turning like my mom, who's now 91, I'm 53. She's 91 said to me, what will, when you, she said, when she turned 50, it was like this big moment for her. Like, she just felt like, oh, now I'm an adult. Now I get to decide what I'm going to do. Like, and I thought you, you waited until you were 50. To feel that and I know, right. And I had that very similar experience at 40 and I thought, Oh, this is what she's talking about. 40 was just this moment in my life where I thought, I feel like a, you know, a grown up. Like I feel like I don't really have to do what everyone else tells me. And then when I turned 50, I had a very similar experience and it like, it's just the best time of my life. Really, really is, I just feel like we have experience and knowledge and we know our boundaries and we, we want to pursue those creative things and, you know, our writing or art or whatever it is. And we, we carve time out for ourselves in a way that when you're, you know, maybe in your twenties, you're focused on school or getting that first job in your thirties, you might have kids or a family or pursuing your, your career or whatever it is. It seems like everything is for everybody else. And, and this time of my life, I'm like, okay, you know what, I'm going to do what I want to do now. And I don't have, um, the same guilt I had when I carved out time when, when I was younger and my kids were younger, I always felt like there was a little bit of tension between my choices. Right. I was always disappointing someone, whether it was myself or somebody else. Yeah. And real or imagined, right? Like real or imagined. So it's, you know, doesn't necessarily mean I don't know your situation, but in my situation, I've got a super supportive family and yet making those choices for yourself feels like somehow, yeah, wrong or selfish. That is one of the pieces, pieces of advice that a lot of the women in women writing have said is that, and these are often coming from writers who have, you know, they're maybe 40, 50, 60 year old years old. And they're saying you have to just do it. You have to take that time for yourself, put yourself on the schedule and not feel like everything is for everybody else. And I totally agree with that because. When you give yourself that time, you have more energy for everyone else. And we forget that, right? If we're giving, giving, giving all the time, we get depleted. But if we take that time for ourselves to do the things we love, then we have more to give. Like it's, it sounds counterintuitive, but I think it really is true. Oh, I think that's absolutely true. I mean, I went through something similar for me that 40 was was that light bulb and I've never really framed it this way before, but just listening to you talk for me, you know, I was at the top of my career. I was an executive chief operating officer is traveling around the world. But I always thought, you know, I kind of had this 40 under 40 mentality or by the time I'm 40, I will have done these things and bucket list was write a book and I had a draft and, and, you know, I had a draft. It took me quite a long time to find a publisher, but I hadn't found a publisher when I was 40. And it was kind of like this moment, right? Where I just was like, all right, I didn't do it. Right? And I know my list is longer people's lists are in their entire lifetime, but it didn't feel great. And so I had a huge party. I was going to, you know, I was excited to launch my book that year. And I wasn't sure what was going to happen, but instead I had a giant 40th birthday party and just celebrated anyway. And yeah, I just went, yeah, this is, this is my time. And you know what? I did find a publisher that year. I did find a publisher. I did have that big book launch. And I did not have any idea that a decade later, I'd be doing this full time. That was not even on my radar. Right? Like you talk about something for yourself and thinking that it will just be sort of a side gig, right? Or this hobby. And then it kind of just took over my life and became who I was. I don't know if that resonates with you. Absolutely. You really start to follow your joy. When I was 50. I mean, I've been speaking to my husband for a couple years before I turned 50 that I thought I might want to take early retirement from teaching and then COVID hit and that was not a great time for teachers. And then we started to recover from COVID and I was turning 50 in, uh, 2022 and we were just on a walk one day and I said, you know, you know, I was probably complaining about something or other. And he says, I think you're done. And I said, I think I'm done too. I had a resignation in the next day and I finished the school year six weeks and I was done. So I did it just wow. Moment. It happened that fast and you didn't even know, right? No, it's, it just snuck up on you. It's just life, yeah, life changing moment, a decision. And I immediate, I don't know how, if you are the same or if anyone else is the same, but when I make the right decision, I feel it in my body, right? Like, I just feel it. If I'm making the wrong decision, my, my body is kind of, it's not right. Like I can tell things aren't quite right. And, you know, I didn't know what I was going to do next. I knew I would write, but I didn't even know about book coaching until, you know, probably six months later, I came across Jenny's, Jenny Nash's Author Accelerator. So, you know, you just kind of have to pay attention to the signals and kind of say, okay, well, you know, life is short and what else do I want to do? And a lot of people just. feel like they have to stay in unhappy situations for a long time because, you know, pension or, or whatever the reason, everyone has a reason for staying in the same place. But I don't know, I think life is really short and we have to take risks. Yeah. And congratulations. And it is a risk, right? Like it's, it's not, and, and it depends on your sense. Not everybody can take that risk at that moment, but that's amazing that you were able to make that decision. What skills, because I work with a lot of writers that come from other backgrounds and I love, love, love working with writers who've come from other careers. And they think it's like a detriment. Oh my gosh, like I'm not a writer, like who am I to come into here? And that's not the way that I see it because everybody brings skills from somewhere else. And the beauty of being a writer is you can come from anywhere. You, you still need to learn how to write and learn the skills. But. For you, what did you find that being a teacher has brought to your writing career? Well, yes. And I mean, at the beginning, I probably didn't quite make the connection, but now I look back and I think, Oh, all of those things have really helped me inadvertently. Like those are skills that I'm using all the time now. And I'm always encouraging teachers because I know there's a lot of them who want to write a book. I'm not suggesting it's the excuses as a negative way, but we all have that. Right? We say, well, I don't have time and family. We have all the reasons why we can't. And my suggestion is there's so many reasons why you can, whether you're a teacher or in a different profession, there's ways to carve out little moments in your day. Like I remember, well, as a teacher, this is, this is a tip for teachers. I would, I was an English teacher, so that's also useful, but I would give my kids time, 10, 15 minutes a day to do a quick write, which meant that they were writing. And I would write too. Sometimes I'd write the quick, right? Sometimes I'd write on my novel. And they sort of clued into the fact that I was working not on the QuickWrite, because they'd say, well, can you read it? And I'd say, well, I was actually working on my novel. And they really wanted to know about that, right? So there was this really interesting back and forth about that. But there are moments in your day, stay a little later after work, spend 20 minutes, lunchtime, right? Find those little nuggets of time. You don't need to have three hours in a day or, or write every day from nine till noon or whatever it is. You need 10, 15, 20 minutes here and there, and just go at it and get to it. Words on pages and all of a sudden it's, you have something, you know, exactly. And I think when you're trying to fit that in, remember, give yourself credit for everything, not just words on page, but yes, words on page are important. But, but even, you know, that write every day advice that we talked about at the beginning of this. It's like, maybe not write every day, but think about it every day. Stay close to it. Daydream something. I like to say, you know, if you're not up for writing, don't stare at a blind page. Go for a walk and take one of your characters with you and think about it. Like, all that stuff has to get done, not just the writing piece. So. You know, what is it that you can do? Yeah. And the other thing that a lot of professionals have with them is that organizational skills and research skills and project management skills all needed to write a book, right? If you're a task oriented, I, I tend to be very task oriented. So I make myself a little checklist and spreadsheets. And that's really useful when it comes to a big project like this that you know is a multi year project. Very few people write a book in, you know, a couple of months. Some people, um, do maybe if they're writing genre fiction, but most people spend a lot more time doing it and you have to sustain that. And often your job or, or your career, um, you, you have those skills that you can bring to the table and that will help you get through the project and by enjoying it. Right. Yeah, I mean, I love to say that nobody ever told me that writing could be a job. And so I went and worked in banking and manufacturing for 20 years and did all this other stuff and then found my way back. But I don't know that had I become a writer right out of high school or out of university or out of college, I I wouldn't have the same career, I wouldn't have the same experiences, I certainly wouldn't build it this way because I'm bringing with me so many different experiences. So whatever it is that people's jobs are, especially women, we can multitask, right? We can bring all of those other things and maybe reinvent themselves. Awesome. So you first wrote a memoir and it was surviving, I'm going to say that, I'm going to try it, Studhoff, My Father's Memories Beyond the Death Gate. And that was in 2017. So you were still working as a teacher at that time, right? Yeah, I was working as a teacher. I had, well, when I started it was 2012, so I had a 12 year old and a nine year old and I was working full time as a teacher and I was coaching and I think I was still, I might have just finished a master's degree. And I was just one of those people who I think like you, Susie, a lot of things happening at one time. I love how you just, you just like sort of casually say, Oh, I might've just finished a mast. Yeah. I think I just finished it like the year before maybe, or maybe that year. I can't remember. And, uh, you know, so I just, I'm a person that keeps busy, but I got a phone call from my mom and she said, um, yeah, somebody wants to write about your dad and they want to write a book about your dad. And she said, I told them you're going to do that. I'm like, oh, okay. And in fact, I had wanted to do that since I was probably in grade 10 when we were having great 10 history. I'd talk about World War II. So my dad was a Finnish merchant Marine sailor and he was captured in Danzig in 1944. With on, on the Vapu, which is a Finnish merchant Marine ship and all the sailors were sent to Stoat Health concentration camp. And he was 16. So he at 84 years old decided that he was ready and willing to tell me his story. And so I'm like, okay, it's, it's time. And of course you can't delay now. He's 84. His health was not great, but it was okay at the time. And I started taking courses at University of Toronto's Continuing Studies Certificate of Creative Writing. And I thought I have to learn everything I can, because if I want to write this book, like it needs to be well done. It's for my dad. Right. And so we started, I just started interviewing him every Sunday for months and months about his memories. And he told me all about his childhood. He told me all about the winter war when he was a young child. And then he told me all about coming to Canada. And I thought, Oh, this is, he's never going to go inside that concentration camp. We're not going to go there. And of course my wife's mother said, just be patient, just be patient. And I kept coming back week after week. And eventually one Sunday he just, you know, opened the death gate and let me in and shared all those memories with me. And so that was the journey we took together. And I started writing his story and he read every single draft. The first one was so terrible. So I didn't know how to write a scene. I mean, I could read a scene and know what was going on in the scene, but to write one, like I had to learn all those skills. And, um, and he read every single draft and rubber stamped everything right like just. I would change anything he, he didn't think was representative of what was happening and it was just the best experience and made us so close. And then after it was published, I self published it originally actually, and then it was picked up by the publisher and it was published under a different title. And he came to events with and sat and chatted with people and could talk about his experiences with strangers in a way that, you know, a year earlier, a couple of years earlier, he, he was struggling to help, to tell me what was, what it had been like. So it was a real transformation in his, in his life as well. And I don't, I hesitate to call writing and, and for calling these things therapy, but I think to some extent it was therapeutic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, writing is always personal. Right. Writing is always personal. And what a lovely thing to have shared with your dad, right? And okay, so ironically, I don't know if you're going to feel called out here, but ironically, you, you now run a community for women, women writing, and you wrote from the male perspective. How was that? Well, the decision early on, because this book falls in a weird category because it's not really a memoir because it's not my story and it's his, it's, it's creative nonfiction. It falls under that broader categories, but there's no real category for story written by somebody else. Like it's not biography, you know what I mean? So I've seen the title family memoir a couple of times and I thought, okay. But. I mean, that's not really common. So it has no real, uh, category. And I think we need one because people are doing this. They're writing their family members. And so I had to make a decision. I could write it in first person as though it was his voice. And I felt extremely uncomfortable doing that. Like I just like It's not me and I, and so I knew I wanted to do third person and I did, but I knew I needed to do it from his perspective. So close third from his perspective. So that worked for me because I just felt uncomfortable doing a first person, you know, I, yeah. And so for those of us, yeah, for those of us who, you know, don't speak point of view really easily, close third just means that. It's like his name and, you know, he did this, not I did this, but we could still hear his thoughts and feel what's going on inside his body. And that's a really common, it's a really powerful perspective. And it's almost the same as doing first person. Yeah. And I think it was, I think that's why I chose it because it felt personal. It felt like everything is through his eyes, but as a writer. With the first venture and it's not my words and it's not my story. I just wanted that one step removal. And I think that worked pretty well. So yeah, writing from his perspective, I, you know, I did worry about getting things right. I did a ton of research. I probably researched for I don't know, a year beforehand, I read every memoir I could find. I read all about the concentration camps. I did all of that. It was like putting on armor, you know, like just, I needed to know what was the possibilities of what could have happened to him before he told me, because I'm a fairly sensitive person. And I was worried that he would tell me stories and I would cry and that would be the end of it. And he wouldn't be able to open up that I wouldn't be able to handle it. And he, he knew me. He knew, so I, I think perhaps one of the reasons he took so long to get to the concentration camp portions is because he was building himself up there to, to it, but also he was gauging my ability to handle it. Do you know what I mean? Wow. Like he was sensitive to me. Yeah, definitely. So, uh, that, that was part of it. And so I, I remember having moments where I was so concerned that I was. I was not getting it right. And I remember I was working with Alison Lada at University of Toronto and I was at work one day and I had probably written something to her, a little note, and I must've sounded a little bit worried, concerned. Because she calls me at work to kind of walk me off the ledge because, and, and what she said to me, I remember always is that you're writing the emotional truth of the story. So that's the important part. You may not get that detail exactly right, but that doesn't matter. You're trying to capture the emotional truth. And it was like, okay, I can do that. I can do that. And so. The fact that he, that I was writing from his perspective, and he was a male, it never really came into my thought process at the time, because I was so keen on getting the story right as much as I could and getting the emotional truth of the story. And you know, it's, it's a journey. So whether you're writing women or, or men or whoever you're writing, it's, it's, you want to be as authentic as you possibly can. Yeah, and you've got, you've got the most important sensitivity reader right there when, you know, your dad, he was reading it with you and, and, and correcting or suggesting along the way. And so, yeah, I love that. The emotional truth. And that's, that's a concept actually, that is also talked about when you have parents with dementia, that the emotional truth is what matters, right? So that's interesting that they were using it there, but. Thank you so much for sharing that piece of your journey because I think I work with a lot of memoir writers and sometimes they get sort of partway through and they wonder, Should I even tell this story? Like, is it, is anybody going to care? Or, or do I want this for me? And did you ever have that moment where you were like, Whew, this is a lot. Can I, should I, should I, not can I do this, but should I do this? So, well, I think what, it was a little bit different for me because I felt like if he doesn't tell us the stories and I don't write them down, they are gone. And my brothers and I had often, you know, chatted about it and we all knew snippets, but we didn't understand the whole story and none of us really knew what happened. And so the next generation certainly wouldn't know what happened. So I had, I felt an obligation to write the stories down, but the whole intention originally was. to write it and perhaps photocopy it for family members. Maybe go to Staples and, you know, bind it. We might bind it so that it at least looks nice. Ambitious. I know we were going to like make several copies. And so that was kind of the head, you know, my head space, but being who I am, like I, I was wanting to write it at the You know, I wanted to learn about writing and I, and I've always wanted to be a writer and this was kind of the beginning of that journey in some ways. So, you know, I wanted to be the best it could be, even if it was only for like, you know, six people. Like that was fun. And I think, but I think that's something that, you know, whether that's whether that's a female trait or not, I don't know, but. But it's something that we kind of couch our dreams, right? So, so, you know, even if Lisa's like, so ambitious and in your deepest heart, hopes that it would go on and by the way, get shortlisted for a Northern Lit Award, and it's also published in Finnish in Finland, like all of these things that might happen. Are your wildest dreams and yet we tell ourselves this smaller thing like, oh, we might go to staples and bind it for family members. And that's what initially writers will often say when they're writing member. Well, I don't, I don't care because I'm just going to do it for my, for myself or my family, but really, you have this other dream and thank you for not squashing that other dream and for, for actually. Realizing that that's a possibility because if you hadn't listened to that inner dream or that secret dream, that's true. You would probably not be here. Right? We wouldn't be talking about it. We wouldn't be talking about it. And, and I think the thing that we realized, too, is when we started talking about the fact that we were working on this project, there was so much interest in it from family, of course, and from friends, of course, but people that You know, like got wind of this project. So you start to realize there are people out there that yearn for these kinds of stories. So whether you're writing a memoir or whatever you're writing there, you have, there's an audience out there who wants to hear about your experiences because it resonates with them. And we, we forget that, right? That it's like, it seems so personal, but no, there are other people that need to hear that story too. And you'll help them in lots of ways. So I've had readers from all over the world contact me and tell me about their family members and, and their grandfather or their father or whatever. And they need, they need these stories because they don't have those stories from their parents. Or grandparents and they're gone and those, you know, it's kind of filling in a little gap for them too. So, you know, it goes beyond, it's, I think we need to allow ourselves to dream bigger. But I think maybe those smaller steps let us get there, right? Okay, I'm just going to finish it first. Okay, now I'm going to this. Okay. And, but know that there's that bigger dream and it is possible. You just need to keep working towards that goal and it, and you can make it happen. You can absolutely make it happen. Is there a moment that you could pinpoint or a, a period of time when that changed from, I'm going to, I'm going to go to Staples and Kinko's or whatever and photocopy it to, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to do something wider with this. What, how did you overcome that? Well, I can't remember exactly when that happened, but definitely as I went through the, like, this was my final project for my certificate of creative writing. So it was, you know, read by Marina Niemann, who's the author of Prisoner of Tehran. And she was my MMR teacher for me, instructor, and, um, you know, I had to sort of defend it almost like a thesis you would in your master's program. So I've, I've gone through all of these courses and revisions and revisions and revisions, and I got to this stage and now there was so much interest in it. And I thought, Oh, I can't. I think other people want to read this. And now my dad is, you know, aging. And so now I'm thinking, okay, I think we need to self publish because I think we're going to run out of time frame. Right. And so. That's what we ended up doing is we self published and then we had a new publisher here in town and I thought, well, I'll just give it a try and I'll send it to them and see what happens. And they accepted it. So like, it's not a very, a really typical journey. I didn't query a ton of time, but I, you know, it just, things just fell into place, which I think the universe does conspire to help us when we put ourselves out there and decide to do things. The book was ready. I mean, Lisa, when people tell me that it's a needle in a haystack to query or to find an agent, find a publisher, all these things, it's not been by experience in the thousands of writers that I've worked with. It happens more often than not the way that you just described, which is something falls into place, right? Or something happens. And when the book is ready, you get a completely different response, right? Okay, so after this amazing experience and then you went on to write a novel and I'm going to ask for pronunciation help again, but Sisu's Winter War. Yeah, did I say it right? Well done. Look at me. So I know that Sisu is a word that really means a lot to you. It's about grit and determination and it's what you coach writers and women writers specifically about. Can you talk a little bit about what that concept is? Yeah, it's, I mean, it is probably the key word in my vocabulary. So I'm a Finnish Canadian. My dad, obviously is from Finland. My mom is second generation Finnish and Sisu is just this concept I've known about my whole life. And there's no real translation into English. So it, you know, grit, determination, courage in the face of adversity, all of those things are circling around it, but imagine yourself in a situation where if. That you had a challenge in front of you and there's no way it's going to work in your favor and you keep going anyway, right? That's SISU. That's that really deep ability and drive to keep moving forward in the worst circumstances. So I've always been aware of this concept and I've drawn on it. In my life at various times, I've seen how Finnish people, my family faced some really difficult times. And sometimes they call it Finnish stoicism, you know, that kind of very blank face and, and, you know, not complaining about it, just moving, you know, just getting the job done. And that's also, that's also Sisu. So sometimes we think of Sisu as being connected to like the Finnish winter war with Russia, 1939, 1940, which is when my book is set. And for sure, but we also have sort of everyday SISU, right? That kind of ability to use that inner determination to face life's everyday challenges. And there's ways to kind of make SISU stronger in your day to day life by maybe going for a walk in nature, like you mentioned earlier, like those are kinds of things that replenish us and make us able to face those challenges. And so this concept, this Finnish concept of SISU is not inherently male or female. It could be either. Yeah. It's either. Yeah. And yeah, I would liken it to and I wish that we did have vocabulary around that because this conversation reminds me a lot about talking with writers about agency. Right. What is that deeply personal reason why your characters in your book are going to go above and beyond to get their goal beyond what a normal human being would do? Why are they doing it? What is the thing? And that is such a difficult concept to talk with writers about because they think that their characters are doing it sometimes. And they're not. And without that, we don't have a novel, like, can you see that parallel? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I think that idea of agency and the characters making decisions, and there's repercussions to those decisions, whether it's positive or negative, and that leads to the next thing. Right. That the character is making choices and they're not just reacting to what's happening to them, you know, and, and that, like you say, that determination, that courage to continue forward when, you know, really, what would we like in real life would be like, no, not doing that. But our characters are like. Have to write they're driven to, and so I totally see there's a connection there with this, uh, this concept of Sisu. Yeah, and talking with writers about putting that into practice in their own lives. I love that. It's so meta, right? Like we, we've got to do in our books. So we got to do it for ourselves. The one thing that I find, I get pushback from writers when they say, well, I'm introverted and therefore I'm not going to be the one, the gregarious person out there making all these decisions and commanding the room. And, and that isn't what it's about. Right? Like, I mean. I live with introverts and I can tell you that they have strong opinions and make decisions. They may not tell you what they are, but they're going to do what they want. And Susie, I have to say that my whole, like, I'm a, I'm an introvert and I know people are always telling me, no, you're not. I hundred percent an introvert. My, my husband is, my kids are, we really like, yes, can we function in the world and have conversations and do all the things? Sure. Of course we can. But then when we come home. We need that quiet space to recharge. I am drained after, you know, a gathering or a talk or a presentation. I love it. I think it's great. I love to do it. But then I need to really recharge by being quiet and just let's Sometimes if you come to our house, we're all in different spaces. And the house is silent. You don't even know where anyone is because we all just need that moment of Okay. So introverts. Yeah. It is totally possible to go and do all those things, right? All the, you know, you publish your book and you need to go and promote it and, and, and you can find joy in that. And there's ways to do that, that feel comfortable and good for you, but you just also know, need to know that you have to recharge your batteries, um, to be able to continue. Absolutely, and I think finding, like you said, those, those things that bring you joy. I mean, people tell me I'm the only, the most extreme extroverted author that they've ever met, and I've actually been challenged on it. I know Brandon Mull, amazing writer, had breakfast with me once, and he's like, I've been watching you at this conference. I don't know what's going on. Like, I want to know why, why you're a writer and like challenged me to my core. He's like, I don't mean to be rude, but like, I'm a writer because I'm introverted and I need to express it. And I was like, I don't know. And then the next day I thought about it. What do you think? Extroverts can think too, right? And I went back to him and I had an answer and that was, okay, well, I'm, yeah, I get it that this is challenging, but I said, I have learned over the years that nobody can handle all the things that I want to say. And so I have to put them somewhere and I put it into my writing. Yeah. And I mean, it's the opposite, right? Yeah. And I totally think that, I mean, it is a little bit stereotypical to think that writers are all introverts. It's not really true, but I do think a lot of writers are, and actually a lot of actors are also introverted. It's a way of expressing themselves in a, you know, sort of in a kind of socially acceptable way. And, and, but I don't think that's true about all, all artists are not all introverted and it's just kind of an image we have of people, but yeah, I know. We all have something to say. We all want to convey it. It's just how, what means do we do? Do we create art? Do we write music? What, what do we do? You know, there's lots of avenues for that. Absolutely. Absolutely. And writing, writing is always personal and it is a means to describe it. So you've done both. You've got sort of a novel out there and a memoir out there. If you are wanting to, this is something that I talk with writers about a lot, would you recommend writing a memoir or fictionalizing their story, and in what circumstances would you do one or the other? Yeah, I'm actually working with a writer right now who's At that really early stage of deciding, is this story going to be a memoir or is this story going to be fictionalized? And I don't think there's a right answer to that. It's really a personal choice. So I think if you're writing memoir, you know, you have to be willing. To when you're if you're writing about other, you know, family members or other people in your life. You have to accept what their reactions to it are going to be. So it might be that, you know, I know 1 strategy is to send the chapter or section that, you know, somebody has mentioned in and and seek their feedback, but you have to make the decision whether you keep it or don't. And you have to also accept the fact that That person, you might be ruining a relationship and that's a possibility. So memoir has lots of benefits and there's lots of reasons to do it, but also you have to weigh the risks and you have to make decisions. Like how much are you going to tell? You get to control the narrative. You don't have to tell everything. So there's a lot of decisions to be made up front about memoir. Whereas fiction, you can take your experiences. And you can play and change all the things and it can be deeply personal for you, but for the reader, it's completely fiction. And so there's a lot of freedom there. So I don't think, you know, one over the other is better. It's just comfort level of the, of the writer. And what is it they're actually, what are they trying to convey through these stories? And you can convey the same point through both, but for some people, there's a deep need to write that first person story. This is what happened to me. And so do it. And I mean, if you're writing on a topic, either way, that can lead to being a speaker. And you can share your own stories. Even if you fictionalize, you can share your own stories later about what happened with your life and how that affected you. And you can still find that community after the fact. I mean, in today's market, fictionalizing it is easier to sell. Um, if you're not a celebrity writing a memoir, fictionalizing it is easier to sell. Yeah. Really difficult to get, uh, publishers interested in just an everyday story of your life, even if it's interesting or has, you know, um, significant moments that people can learn from. You have the option of, of self publishing, there's hybrid publishing, there's other ways to get your work out there. Those have a whole other list of things that you have to do and be responsible for. So there's a lot of choices to be made, but like you say, if you fictionalize it. You know, if, and your goal is to have a publication traditionally published, you know, that might be the way to go. If your goal is to sell your book. So thinking about your goals up front is important because I mean, here I am saying, well, I just wanted to public, I just wanted to photocopy it and go to staples, but I called you out on it. That's not what you really wanted. But those are the stories that we tell ourselves and make ourselves a little bit smaller and it's a protection mechanism, right? I think it is, but it's also, it's also maybe at the beginning, especially if you're a new writer, not really understanding the business, the process, the opportunities, like I think if I was doing it now, I would approach it completely differently. But at the time my focus was, how do I write this book? Like, that was. All I worried about, how would you approach it differently? I want to hear this. And I'm sure our listeners are like, Oh, how would you approach it differently? Let us learn. So, so now, I mean, the process would have probably been the same. I probably still would have met with my dad on a weekly basis. I probably still would have gone through that, you know, long process of gathering the information that, you know, the research part was fine, but I think I would have been much more aware of the fact that. I do have options for publish publication. I would have been more preparing myself in terms of thinking about how do I market this book much earlier in advance? Like, I mean, there was barely any marketing when I self published because it really wasn't about that. We, and surprisingly it sold really well, Finnish community, especially. But, uh, now I think it, it has a bigger market. There's lots of people who want to read this and have read it. So, yeah, I think I would have been just the business side of it. I would have spent more time understanding it. And that's probably why it's for new writers. We want to write a good book. We want to learn craft. We want, it's, it's tough. It's long process, but there's the other end of it that will serve you well if you start that research now. And understanding how those things work and leaning on people who know who have done it before, who can give you advice. So, yeah, I think now I, now I would do it differently, but anyway. Well, I think now the time, whether you're thinking about writing a book, or you're starting writing a book, or you're in the end stages of writing a book, the time to start thinking about. Who you're going to liaise with and what community might be interested in it and getting your hooks in and figuring that piece out now, the time is now, building your platform and making those connections, because if you've got 12 people waiting for your book, when it's done, that's better than zero. That's right. And those 12 people have friends. And, and, and. Exactly. Social media, I often have authors ask me, well, when should I, you know, get on social media? And now yesterday, but now it's a good to like, get on there now and just get your feet wet and start to feel comfortable and see what other people are doing. And just eventually like at the beginning of social for people who aren't on social media, which is hard to believe there are still people who aren't on social media because there's becoming more and more people who are. Who were and aren't again, which is maybe a mental health choice and a smart one or a political choice. But yeah, it's hard, right? All the different forms of that. So, I mean, it's, it's wise to kind of figure out what space you feel comfortable in and what you feel comfortable sharing and start, just start doing that. And then when the book comes out, you have a little space of people who are ready for it and want it because it's yours and you can have that conversation with them. It's lovely. Lucky. I don't have bad experiences on social media, to be honest, because I'm surrounded by mostly lovely writers and book coaches and other literary folks. I agree. And my feed, I mean, yeah. And then what I see is just such a lovely supportive community. And then when I sort of step outside and sometimes I'm like, what is happening? Stay inside. I love working in the arts. It's a great time to be working in the arts. All right, it gives you faith in humanity. Some questions that I ask all writers that come on this podcast. Take you to write that first book. How long? Mm hmm. Oh, okay. So we, I'm going to say, um, From the time you decided to do it and your mom said you're doing this and you were like, okay, Well, I really just, I actually started to think about writing it when I was 14. So I started writing it when I was 40. So there's that. Right. And then there is. Been there. Yeah. And then I would say it took three years between starting and finishing and self publishing. And then another two years before it was reedited and repackaged for the publisher. So, you know, there's different timelines there, but it took three years, but that is relatively quick as it, but partially because that story was handed to me. Right? Like, I was given the story, I need to figure out how to tell it, and I spent a lot of time working through that process and doing courses and, and getting, uh, support. I know people whose first book took 20 years. So, like, there's a risk. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, that's why I asked the question, because I think that there's this myth out there that it's easy. Right. Or that it's fast. And I think, you know, my, my listeners in particular, the Show Don't Tell writing podcast, we're all about sharing the truth and, and peeling it back. And yeah. So thank you for being honest about that. Now you. Achieve the Holy Grail, which is self publishing and then becoming discovered. Um, and that is something that people come to me all the time and think is possible. And I tell them that it's not because it is so rare, right? It's not common. Um, and in fact, many times when you have published it once yourself or independently published it, traditional publishers won't touch it. So what was it about yours that, that made you that exception to that rule? Well, I think it was a per a perfect number of things that a lot of which was out of my control. Right. So one is I think it is a compelling story. It is. And I say that not because I wrote it, but because his life experiences were extraordinary. So there's that. Right. Secondly, It sold well, like really well for a self published book, which is also unusual because self published books, unless you're in genre fiction and on Amazon and a bestseller, it's possible, but like this kind of category may be less so. So that was good. Like you need to have a huge number, like 10 times what you think, um, in order to, and I, you're not sharing numbers, so I won't put you on the spot, but like you have to have a lot more than you think. And if it just does mediocre as an independently published book, you, you are not going to get very far. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing that, again, not under my control, but the, uh, we had a small press here in Sudbury and I had pitched to them and then they closed. He retired. So I'm like, Oh, that's too bad. Like the timing was bad. I thought, okay, well, whatever. And then the new publisher was just opening their doors and I thought, what does it hurt to send it to them? And so I did. And there, they had an immediate interest. They were a new publisher, a small publisher. They knew that like, we had discussed how my book was doing. They knew it was doing well. They felt like it had legs. They felt like the story was important. And so those things like, you know, it was kind of by chance, like if it had been five years later or five years before, I mean, this may not have happened, but the timing kind of. Just fell into place. And so, so that's kind of what happened. So I think we needed a number of things to be going on at that moment. One of what was, the book was done and it was doing well. So that helped the publisher have confidence in it too. But like you say, that's not really typical. Like if you've self published, a lot of presses won't even look at it because it's out there already. So I kind of Just full caveat before we, we share the stories, but we also share that piece of it, right? That it's don't necessarily Do as I do, as I say, right? And I usually ask, and maybe we've just answered this, but what your first big break was in your publishing or in your writing journey? Would you say that it was, is getting that picked up or was there something else that really just. I don't know that I would call, I guess that would be sort of the big break, but I think one of the first things that I did was start sending out smaller pieces and getting those published and what that does for you is give you a little bit of confidence. And know that people like what you're doing and are willing to pay you not much, and sometimes not at all, but they'll, they'll put your work in their publication. And I think that's important, especially when you're starting out, because you really don't know if anyone wants to read your words and are they're interested in this story. So I think it wasn't necessarily a break, but I think it's something I needed so that when it came to publishing this. In full form. I recognize that there were readers who actually wanted it. And so, you know, that's probably. It's probably important for folks not to just focus on, I tend to focus just on my novels and spend so much time and I always think I need to send out more work in other publications and I'm not always the best about it, but it is an important thing to keep sending your work out and getting rejections. You're going to get rejections, but keep sending your work out. It's part of the process and you know, it's good. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And you are now, um, you're, you're writing and you're also a book coach, you're an accredited book coach with Author Accelerator. Which is where I am also certified. Can you tell us a little bit about your book coaching business and what kinds of authors you or what kinds of writers you support? Yeah, so I have a group of coaching classes that focus on helping writers either at the beginning stages or to revise a manuscript where they get a little stuck and getting them thinking through the fundamentals again to move their project forward. I also work with one on one with individuals. So I have a kind of a variety of different genres right now, but typically historical fiction and women's fiction, young adults, I work a lot with and memoir. I have some memoirists as well. And so I do have a lot of women, but I also have some male clients and I'm love to have them. And I just find it's such an amazing job. Like I, I never knew about book coaching before I started and I, I'm, I'm just thrilled to be able to help other writers navigate this process. And it's just amazing to see their stories develop and change and see them grow as writers and gain confidence and, and, you know, access that, you know, finished SISU that we all have, even, even if you're not finished, we all have SISU and it's just. I, I can't even describe how I feel about it because having left teaching and I am a teacher at heart to find work that I love so much. It's just a gift. It's just a gift. Yeah. Working with writers to tell their stories is definitely a calling and I know that you and I share it and it's, yeah, it's an absolute, the most amazing planet, right? Where can we find you? Listeners are going to want to find you. Where, where can they find your, your podcast, your website, your services, all that stuff. So the main places are, my website is lisakovalabookcoach. com and I'm also on Instagram, Lisa Kovala and Facebook. And I'm on all the things, but also Substack is where I have my newsletter and you can access the podcast from there. Although it does go out to YouTube and it goes to Spotify and all the things, Lisa Kovala on Substack, that's probably where you'll be able to find all the bits and bobs. Awesome. And we'll drop all those in the show links. Thank you so much for coming on today, talking with us, listeners, go check out the podcast for sure. Women Writing with Lisa Kovala. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Suzy Vidori. I'll be continuing to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or planning to write. Please consider subscribing to this podcast and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you're listening. Also, visit suzybedore. com forward slash newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list where you'll stay inspired and be the first to know about upcoming training, events and writing courses that happen in my community. If you're feeling brave, check the show notes and send us a page of your writing that isn't quite where you want it to be yet for our show don't tell page review episodes. Remember that book and your writing is going to open doors that you haven't even thought of yet. And I can't wait to help make it the absolute best. If you're feeling called to write that book, keep going. And I'm going to be right here cheering you on. See you again next week.