34. Story Grid with Editor Joanne Haines

In this episode, Suzy interviews Story Grid Editor Joanne Haines about the Story Grid evaluation process. They discuss how it addresses the 5 commandments of story and how you can apply them to scenes and your overall story. They also discuss how Story Grid approaches the writing advice of "show, don't tell" in a unique way. 

Connect with Joanne on her website at https://shelflifeeditorial.com/

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Transcript

0:49

Welcome to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Susie Vidore, where I teach you the tried and true secrets to writing fiction, nonfiction, that are going to wow your readers broken down step by step. We're going to explore writing techniques. I'm going to show you a glimpse behind the scenes of successful writers careers that you wouldn't have access to otherwise, and I'm also going to coach writers live on their pages so that you can learn and transform your own storytelling. Whether you're just starting out, you're drafting your first book, you're editing, or you're currently rewriting that book, or maybe even your tenth book, this show's gonna help you unlock the writing skills that you didn't even know you needed, but you definitely do. So looking forward to helping you get your amazing ideas from your mind onto your pages in an exciting way for both you and your readers, so that you can achieve your wildest writing dreams. And you're going to also have some fun doing it. Let's dive in. I was lucky enough to meet up with Joanne Haynes at a conference where she and I dreamed up this episode for you on one of her all time specialties, which is the story grid methodology. Joanne is a StoryGrid Certified Editor as well as an Author Accelerator Certified Book Coach. She's based near Anchorage, Alaska. And despite our relative geographical distance, we've managed to stay connected. And I couldn't wait to have this conversation with her when we were together. Diving deep on a super effective method of planning and evaluating a novel. That sometimes feels overly complex. I've worked with many writers who swear by the story grid methodology, and it was really eye opening to pick Joanne's brain on all the good things it has to offer. She breaks it down for us step by step, concept by concept. Joanne is the founder of Shelf Life Editorial and has been an editor for nearly 20 years. She knows her stuff, and she loves meeting writers where they're at in their writing journeys. She can nerd out with those who already love plotting or help guide a bit of structure for those who write by the seat of their pants. I just can't tell you how excited I am to talk to Joanne about this. Joanne is a StoryGrid certified coach as well as an Author Accelerator coach. And so I, we kind of danced around this. I got the chance to sit down with her in person and like, we need to podcast this and share it with our listeners. And specifically diving in on sort of the story grid methodology, which is really, really cool and how you listeners can apply it to your writing, specifically with outlining yes, and also for Show Don't Tell. Welcome, Joette. Oh, thank you so much for having me here, Susie. I'm really, really excited to talk about this. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about Storygrid and, and what exactly it is. Cause I know it's kind of bantered around, but just for our listeners. Yeah. Yeah. Storygrid is a method that Sean Coyne developed when he was an acquisitions editor and literary agent and his 30 plus year career in publishing on the East Coast, and then Tim Grawl has been taking it a step further and using it as a way to teach writers how to be better writers. So, I think, first and foremost, I want to remind people that Storygrid is a tool. It's just another one of those tools out there that you might resonate with that you could apply to your writing. And I know Tim has been on YouTube lately, dropping nuggets of wisdom, a lot of people are coming to us having that exposure. They also did a podcast for a long, long time while Tim learned to write and wrote his first book called The Threshing. And so there's been a lot of learning over this, these many years and Story Grids. Evolved even since then and it's just, it's a really exciting tool and there's a lot of us StoryGrid certified editors that just nerd out about it, so I'm happy to be here to nerd. I mean, I always think about StoryGrid as primarily an outlining tool. Is that, is that right? Or is that only part of it? That's actually only part of it. It's actually more of a, an analysis tool. So the way Sean developed it. Was he was getting manuscripts as an acquisitions editor and he didn't know what editors did to say this is good or not good. And it was kind of a gut thing or kind of a gut thing. And he needed something more tangible than that. So over his career, he developed story grid where he takes it, takes manuscripts scene by scene. And he looks for what he calls the five commandments of storytelling, which are part of every unit of story. And he applies value shifts to every. Scene and he has a whole spreadsheet. It can be very overwhelming to some people and very exciting to others, but it's a tool he uses an editor to help decide if a manuscript needed more work or was ready to go. So it actually and so what it's becoming is the opposite of that. And that's where it gets kind of sticky is because I think it was designed as one thing. We're starting to use it as another thing, but it works both ways. Yeah. And when would you apply, like, when would you apply this? Is it something that you can only do once you have a draft that you think is done and you can check, or is it something you can use for planning? Is that what you're referring to by how we're kind of flipping around how it's being used? So in order to use it for planning, I think the, the portion that we would use for planning is something that Sean originally called the fool's cap. Where you had a very macro level, you answer questions like, what is the genre of my story? And he breaks it down even to internal, external genres. What's my narrative device, who's telling the story, and how are they telling the story, the controlling idea. So all of that stuff is part of planning, as well as coming up with the scenes that you need for each act or each quadrant. He uses four quadrants, and so you could certainly do that planning as well. And there's lots of tools that you can use to decide what scenes. However, it really gets fun. You can apply it to, if you've written a scene, and you wonder if a scene works, you can apply the Five Commandments to a scene, or use the Five Commandments to outline a scene, so it works even at that micro level. Can you share the Five Commandments for us? Yeah, absolutely. This is all super, I love to geek out about story, and different ways to look at it. So, Well, we'll do that in just a moment. And I'm also curious, what is special about StoryGrid versus author methodologies of constructing or evaluating a story? Like, what, what do you see as an editor in this space that works better? For me in particular, I think what works better is it's very tangible. I feel like He has put words and concepts to things that we've only been able to feel. Like if somebody gives you your manuscript back and I was like this. Dialogue feels flat. Well, what does that really mean? And Sean has been able to give us words to talk about what that means. We talk about misattuned dialogue, and valence language, and really can get in and take that flat part and talk about why. And what needs to happen that in addition to the idea of the 5 commandments, because the other really cool thing about story grid is his idea of the 5 commandments, because they really apply to every unit of story. So, no matter where you are in your writing or your manuscript. You can apply them to see if that particular portion is working. And by unit of story, you mean a scene, a chapter, a act? Yep, so your whole story, you know, obviously. And then he breaks it down into four quadrants. A lot of methods use three acts. And then from there you get into the scene, and that's really where the magic happens. If you can learn to really write a good scene, there's units of story even smaller than that. There's tropes that he talks about. There's, and there's beats that he talks about as units of energy on the page. It can get really heady. So let's get back to the five commandments because they show up in all of those. There's a global five, there's global five commandments, quadrant five commandments. Scene level five commandments. So the five commandments are if you guys are all ready for them. Totally ready. You've been building this up. Hey, I know I'm ready to talk about these. Let's do it. Okay, okay So and a lot of them will probably sound familiar because I think there's a lot of crossover and methodology So, of course we start with your inciting incident So that's a ball of chaos that comes into the story and knocks your protagonist's life off balance It could be something small or big, but it's indicating that something is not right in the world for the protagonist, and they need to respond to it. And then, of course, we all know that in an exciting story, that'll progressively complicate as you're reading. That's what keeps your readers hooked. But it gets to a point where you get to your second commandment, which is the turning point. So that's the progressive complication that pushes the protagonist past how they usually respond and they realize, shoot, I am, this is new territory. I really either need to transform or I need to double down. And so it becomes this binary crisis. And Sean teaches that third commandment crisis as a, as a binary question. Do I do this or do I do this? And there should be a lot of stakes to both of them. And it's usually a best bad choice where it, where I love that. The best bad choice. That's so great. Like neither choice is gonna, it's not gonna be obvious which choice. You're going to want to take because there's different stakes applied to it. So there's the best bad choice or the irreconcilable goods choice, which is it's good for me, but not for you or vice versa. So. So it's a real crisis of what do I choose because I'm balancing what's at stake. So he teaches crisis as a binary question. So it's a real choice with incompatible options. And binary just meaning there's two choices. There's only two choices. Could be yes or no. Could be black or white. Could be whatever. This or that. But it's not going to be an obvious choice. There have to be meaningful states attached to both of them. And it's going to tell us a lot about your protagonist's character and context, you know, in terms of what they choose. So the choice is the climax. So that's the fourth commandment. The climax is what the protagonist decides to do as a result. Number three, the binary question is posing the question, and then, you know, the characters grappling with it, and then they make a choice, and that kind of gets resolved in the climax. Well, so the climax is the actual choice, and then the fifth commandment's the resolution, which is what happens as a result of that choice, is the, you know, usually the rest of the sequence. Do you ever use the word denouement? Because I think it's something that's, it's kind of, yeah, well, it is and, and it, but it doesn't mean anything in French. It's a, it's a literary term that, that means the same in French and English, but, but it's, it's kind of that ending or resolution and it used to be taught that way and it's no longer on and I'm trying to bring it back. And it's sort of that denouement. And it's kind of that, You know, there is a resolution, but it's that status quo and showing yes, the resolution, but what is the new norm? Or what is that? It's not just the end and then we're done. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I love that. You said status quo because that really is part of it. Because. Before the inciting incident, you're in the status quo, right? And then the inciting incident happens. And then, yeah, by the time you get to the resolution, you're in a new status quo. So, as you roll into the next scene, you're in your new status quo. You're going to have another inciting incident come come in to play for a new scene. So, as a, as a story grid editor, if I am evaluating a manuscript, I'm really looking for those 5 things at the scene level. And so I might delineate a scene differently than the author may have felt or intended, but I can actually say exactly why this is a scene. You can break up chapters differently. Chapters are not scenes. No, chapters are not, I like to say that chapters are relatively arbitrary in the grand scheme. I mean, the only chapter break that, you know, I advise to pay attention to is the end of chapter three. Because psychologically, a reader, an agent, a publisher, we're kind of trained to like go three chapters in and say, How am I going to keep going? And there's like this commitment. So the first couple of You know, we're kind of willing to get our feet wet and we're willing to wait a little bit. And there's a contract in the first chapter with your reader that says, this is what the, the book is gonna be about. But if you're not sort of at that precipice that your character is on it, the adventure. Yeah. By cha, by the end of chapter three. Yeah. So other than that, turn them around. Make them long. Make them short. Yeah. Do whatever you want with chapters and pay attention to scenes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's where StoryGrid puts a lot of their energy is the scene level. That is so awesome. Okay, so I mean, I teach these things in slightly different ways. And like you said, there's some overlap with lots of different methods. The StoryGrid one is so detailed to me, and I just love that. But many Many, for many writers, it can be, you already said, a little overwhelming, so any tips to, like, keep from getting overwhelmed? Yeah, honestly, I feel like the biggest tip is try not to think about it, honestly, because you can, unless, unless your brain really, Likes that structure like I think I think story grid really was designed as an analysis tool first and foremost So write your scenes and then if you've learned story grid you can look at it through that filter where you can give it to somebody who has and And see what's working and what's not and then make adjustments accordingly But if you overthink it going in I think you can really Paralyze yourself. Yeah, and I think some of these things, like you said, you may have already done in your scenes, or you may need to naturally for some of the scenes that are clear herb, and some of them might be murky. Yeah, right. Exactly. It can help clarify after the fact. Yeah, rather than trying to plan with it. Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I think that's yeah. Yeah, that's the first tip. Don't overthink it. But if you want to use it to plan, it can be a very handy planning tool if you understand the five commandments and you, because then it acts as, okay, I know this is going to be status quo and the inciting incident, and you can kind of map out where you want to go and then you should just fill in all the detail in between. Yeah, but if you find it overwhelming. Yeah, if you find that overwhelming, just don't do it. Do it after. And do it after. Do it after and then just fill in the gaps. I love that. I love that. Okay. So one of the reasons, so Joanne and I actually are in the same place, even though she's from Alaska and I live in Canada and we are currently in the States and at a conference together, which is amazing. We've been having amazing conversations about so many things. And one of the reasons why I really wanted to have her on the show was because she, you know, the show is Show Don't Tell, and yes, we do talk about the craft of Show Don't Tell, but I know that StoryGrid teaches Show Don't Tell in a slightly different way, and I want to bring this to our writers and listeners here. Is let's talk about show don't tell like that, that it's not just tired writing advice, right? What does it mean in the story grid universe? Yeah, it's a little bit different in the story grid universe. I mean, we certainly look for writing that is showing and not telling how we all have. been taught growing up, you know, don't, don't write boring things, essentially. Write boring things. But what does that mean, right? Yeah. So, so StoryGrid kind of does it on two levels. So, the show don't tell is connected to the StoryGrid's narrative device. And this is part, part of something that you could use in your planning or outlining ahead of time is encouraging you to think about who is telling your story. I guess you as the writer are telling your story. But at a different level, you can simulate who is telling this story and to whom, and so they've differentiated that as in the real world, there's the artist and there's the reader, right? There's Susie as the author, or sorry, I'm not going to use the term author. Susie is the artist, she's the writer, and she's writing a book that us People out here in the real world are going to read and I love that you're going to go beyond that I was at a school visit a couple of weeks ago and we were talking about voice and I had written and this was something specific to this class where the teacher really had asked me to do this and so I was like oh I can do that and so I went home and I actually wrote it took me a couple of hours and it was ridiculous but I wrote a story four ways where I gave them what the plot was and they wrote it four different ways and it was in four different voices and so it was a story of pirate treasure and I wrote it from the perspective of the pirate and then I wrote it from the perspective of, of a queen and then I wrote it from the perspective of and the same things happened but in that person and then there was a kid Who got a treasure map at school and then there was a parrot, which was their favorite. And I kept saying, who do you think? I read them the story with all the voices and things. It was hilarious. And they loved the stories. They were enraptured. And then I said, okay, who do you think wrote this story? And they say, you did Susie. This is a perfect example. I love this. Yes. Right? You did, Susie. And I'm like, well, no, but, but like, who's the character? They're like, it's you, you wrote it. And I'm like, okay, no, but who's telling the story. Yeah. So you're telling the story. I know, I know you are going to be, yeah, you're going to get it. That's exactly right. Because you're going to be using different words, different language. If it's a parrot telling the story versus a pirate telling the was really fun to read out loud. There's lots of squawks and repetitive. Yeah, oh my god. Just actually take the treasure. He decides, everybody else got cursed and the parrot like decides that treasure is of gold is of no use to me and he flew off and then he was never cursed and that book was never heard from again. I love that. I love that. Yeah, so StoryGrid often uses the example of The Hobbit to illustrate this concept of artist and reader versus author, and we call it single audience member, SAM for short. So, with The Hobbit, your artist is J. R. R. Tolkien, and the readers are us out here in the world. It's the, the mass audience. But the author in the SAM of The Hobbit is actually a grandfather. Telling a bedtime story to his grandchildren and so, and you can see that in the language. Sometimes I think there's 1 point where he addresses his, his audience member to, to make sure that they know, like, oh, it doesn't get too scary. At 1 point. He, like, breaks that 4th wall, but you can simulate that for your own stories. And as an outlining tool, making that choice ahead of time can be really helpful to simulate who is telling this story. And to whom? And so picturing even just your author and your Sam sitting at a coffee shop. Not your Samwise Ganji though. No, no, no. Sam, your single audience member. Yes, hello to all you Sams out there. Um, you'll be hearing that a lot as I talk about this. Yeah, yeah. So, so picture, like, picture your, your single audience member as somebody who has a similar problem to your protagonist. And then think about your author as who in that person's life has the knowledge and ability to tell a story that's going to help Sam with her problem. So it's, it's very much a mental simulation, but it can really help you hone in on, on what language to use, how to tell the story, what POV to choose, first person, third person, how omniscient you want to be and make all those decisions in a really intentional way. Yeah. And I love that. I mean, the, the, the point of view, especially when I work with newer writers, choosing a point of view, everybody does. And I think one of the things that, that we don't always do well, right. And the, you know, we go back to our 12th grade English class notes or something, we say, okay, well there's first person, second person, which is like you, you, you, which is great. Actually in business books, I use it a lot. When I coach business folks, it's not often used in fiction. Third person is probably one of the most common. And then there's this, like, omniscient, and third person can be close or far or distant. And then there's omniscient. And I often find that writers, especially when they're newer to the craft, they will just pick one, and whichever one they feel is easiest, or whichever one is the easiest way that they see to write a story. And so I get a lot of omniscient writers that come in and it's very, I'll tell you right now, it may seem like the easiest, it's actually the most difficult one to do well. Um, and it's also very uncommon in most, in most commercial fiction today. Um, in most fiction that actually gets published. So if you choose omniscient, you must do it perfectly. So if it's your first book, look really seriously at one of these other options is my recommendation because it's really hard to do it well, and it will, it may, if you don't do it well, then it doesn't work. Anyways, tell us your side. Yeah, no, absolutely, and I think, too, if you're feeling like you're having problems with POV and something's not, Feeling like it's working, think about your narrative device. Who's telling this story? Would they be telling it in an omniscient way? Or do you need to choose? Could they access? Yeah. Could they access everybody's thoughts? Yeah. Like a true God or omniscient person would, yeah. Yeah, so that that is 1 way to to analyze your story is have I chosen the right POV and that all trickles back down to that narrative device. Who's the author? And who are they telling the story to, to help solve her problem. And so where this is connected to show, don't tell, so again, picture these two people at a coffee shop. And as your author is telling the story to their friend, showing, the way I like to think about it, is showing is kind of like where Sam is looking at the table and is looking at the action. The author is showing them what is happening. And then in moments where the author is telling. Sam, something Sam looks up and is looking directly at the author to get the information that she needs so often telling happens in exposition. It has more, can you, can you explain exposition just for exposition being, you know, not the dialogue bits, a lot of the description, a lot of the, the camera shifting, if you're trying to get from 1 place to another world building. Information Sam needs or your reader needs to make sense of what's happening. I love that. I've never, I've never heard it told like that before, where we look at the, at the narrator's face and watch them tell the story versus showing it. I mean, there's lots of things that I teach that are similar. For example, we don't want to hear somebody telling you what happened. We want to be there. It's like, gosh, you know. Joanne, this thing happened downstairs and somebody slipped and fell and it was hilarious. They're like, what are you talking about? And I say, Oh, you had to be there. Right? Like, so it's bringing Joanne to that moment and showing her the way that it happened and letting her experience it versus having something happen off screen. Right. Or like in a, in a movie, it would be something happened off screen. So bring that person to the moment. And show them, but I just love that. That's such a boring, I think that's really going to resonate with the listeners. It'd be really boring to have a movie, for example, with, I'll say, my face. Nobody wants to watch my face telling you a story, right? Like, for two hours. That's not, that's not cool. That's boring. And that's what your, your sort of reader can conjure. Show and tell has so many facets, and we're going to go through a few more here. But, but really the concept is, can the reader create an image in their mind and can they feel it and can they experience it versus feeling really separate from it or feeling like they missed out on the banana peel moment. Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I, and I feel like it's important to say there are times where telling is perfectly fine, but it absolutely, you still need to, this is going to get really maybe confusing, but you still need to use showing language in your, in your telling. If, if the author is telling Sam something you can still use and in story grid, we call that valence language. Be again be very particular about the words that you're using. So they're rich. They're Descriptive they're specific. They're specific. Yeah, so you're really getting across the meaning of what's happening So even if the author is needing to take a moment to tell something because there it's more subjective and it might be a moment that the artist really wants to make sure that meaning gets through versus letting the reader create the meaning for themselves. There's moments where, you know, you may, you might want to make that artistic decision. But that's how I think about it. If it's really good showing writing, it feels like I'm watching something play out in front of me versus looking up at who's telling me the story. Right. And if you're thinking about, you know, back to the movie analogy, Your camera is your choice, right? You're zooming in on the bridge and you're hearing what's happening on the bridge and you can hear their dialogue. That's showing. If you're zooming back and you are doing a montage right across the screen, or you see Joanne's face coming up and telling you the story, um, that's telling. And there are moments for both of those in writing. I tend to be really encouraging on the show don't tell front because most writers in the beginning don't do enough showing. It's easier to tell, especially in a first draft. You're telling yourself that first draft for the first time. It's harder to dive into those moments and pick and choose when you do it. And then I love that moment when a writer's pages come in and I'm like, you're showing too much and they're like, what, you know, like they've zoomed in on something and they've drained the well dry and showed me a whole conversation that has nothing to do with anything and it's kind of boring. Right. Um, hey, summarize that she told her about the banana peel moment. Right. Yeah. Let's keep using that. And then, and then sometimes those things can be told. But, but in all likelihood, when you're starting, at least, you probably are telling too much. Yes. Yes. That's what, that's what we're seeing. And in fact, in so I work as a mentor in the story grid writer mentorship program. And that's really what they're teaching right now and practicing is just writing action, writing that we call it on the surface things you can see, hear, touch, smell, taste. If you're writing at that action level in a writ, in that, in a way that's valenced, your reader's going to get the meaning, the meaning of what you're trying to tell writers too, and tell me what you think of this. Okay, so yes, the five senses, absolutely, but some of them are more important than others. And, and usually we rely on vision or, or see, and so be aware that you're not only doing that, but Taste is the one that I like to joke that you get maybe twice in a book, unless it's, unless it's a book about food somehow. And it's truly important. We don't want to walk into the room and describe all the things and how does it sound? And how does it look? And what does it smell like? And then bend down and lick the floor. I'll let everybody know what it tastes like. Right? Like it's, it's quite funny. I actually was working. Well, not funny, but I was working with a writer recently. Hopefully You're listening. And, uh, and you know, I, I was making that crack about taste and, and, and they shared with me that they've been given the advice to use it at least twice in every scene. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. So what do you think about that? Oh, that's interesting. I taste twice in every scene. No, no, I would just, I would say, make sure you have at least. Two of the senses in every scene. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But this is one that just isn't, it just isn't as important. It needs to be very context appropriate. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not going around like looking for it. Don't go around and have your character looking the floor unless that's really important somehow, or they live in candy land or something. All right, Joanne, how long does this process take to evaluate it using the story grid method? Is it like a, as an editor? Yeah, it can take a really long time if you're using the spreadsheet and you're filling in all the pieces. Certainly, but however, if you're wanting to just analyze a scene, it shouldn't take very long to see if you have the 5 commandments there. So we generally try to practice like a 1000 word scene. If you're able to read that and get a sense for, okay, here's the inciting incident. Turning point crisis climax resolution should take half an hour to 45 minutes for a scene. Yeah, but typically when people submit something and then it becomes analyzed by an editor, is it like, is it weeks? Is it months? Does it take you, you know, does it take a year to revise? Like what's this going to add to the process? I mean, I can see the value. Yeah. Yeah. I would say if it's a dedicated project project, most editors more story grid editors, I think, take take a month to do a story grid analysis. And that's generally. At least the 20 core scenes. So, so the five commandment scenes in, in each quadrant. So each, and that's what I was talking about. Every unit of story, we're gonna identify what the Global Five Commandments are. Yeah. Those scenes that are acting as those Global Five Commandments and at the quadrant level is very important as well. And then at the scene level, it is probably a little bit editor dependent in terms of how fast you analyze each scene, but we're really looking for the 5 commandments and that value shift what is actually changed in the story. And if you do your 5 commandments, well, you should have a clear. Shift from the beginning to the end. Something has changed because that's the whole point. Yes. Absolutely. That's the arc, right? Okay. So here's some fun ones for you. Okay. Deep breath. What's the coolest thing that's happened to a writer that you've worked with using StoryGrid? Like, what's the coolest thing that you've seen happen to a writer's book? Like, is there an example that you can give us where you're like, yes, that was, that was what that story needed. Yeah, I mean, I have a couple anecdotes in terms of, I think the light bulb moments of being able to recognize a lot of what they're already doing, right. And being able to just describe it in a way that's more understandable or that is, you're not just giving feedback like, Ooh, great scene. It's like, Ooh, great scene because this, this and this, like this is, and this is why this is solid. Yeah. And those light bulb moments of, I mean, writers, most writers. Are they have an intuition about it, and they just don't have necessarily the words to apply to it. So I love the light bulb moments where they recognize what they're already doing well, and then understanding the parts in a new way. That that they can then apply and get better. So I have seen a lot of that, especially in the writer mentorship program in terms of manuscript level. I had an author come to me with an almost done manuscript, but she didn't know what to do with the ending. She was stuck at the end. And we worked through those core questions about genre and about, you know, identifying each scene in the quadrant and how they were acting at that by commandment level and asking questions about why was she telling the story in the 1st place? What was the controlling idea? And and is she was she heading in that direction? And we were able to answer a lot of those questions, find out what she was missing. She went away for a few months and then came back and I mean, her manuscript was night and day. She was able to, to really rewrite it in a way that was, she knew what she was doing with it at that point. Yeah. I mean, the writer's goals are really important. Um, first and foremost, stay true to your, why, why are you writing this particular story at this particular moment? And sometimes we miss that. Not even. You know, I love that that's part of the story grid methodology because the big picture of it, yeah, we can go and analyze all the things, but if you haven't accomplished what you meant to accomplish with that book, none of that matters. Yeah, I think that's why she was stuck with the ending is because maybe she had veered off course and really needed to get clear on why she was writing it and what she wanted the message to be. And so once we cleared that up, she was able to get it amazing. Love that. Okay, so. Joanne, if you could leave these listeners with one piece of advice, what's your best piece of, your go to advice for a new writer who's just joining this industry and trying to make a go of it, and what would you tell yourself When you were starting, gosh, what's coming up for me right now is to just write to really be brave. Get words on the page. Don't get paralyzed by trying to follow a certain type of structure or method. Use those as tools in your toolbox. Get words on the page. Get clear about why you're writing what you want to say. And then apply those tools, then go find the tools that you need to fix the things that you need to fix instead of trying to shoehorn your story into a particular way of doing things. Yeah, love it. Love it. Okay, Joanne, this has been awesome. Do you want to talk a little bit about what it is that you offer for writers, both your coaching, your editing, and where can we find you? Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me at Shelf Life Editorial. That's a bit of a mouthful. I'll drop the show. I'll drop the show links. Joanne Haynes dot com takes you to the same place. I primarily, I primarily work with authors one on one. So I offer monthly coaching. And always at the beginning of that, it's evaluating what they already have through many of these story grid lenses. A lot of people come through the story grid pipeline to me, but even if you've never heard of story grid, there's ways to talk about it and apply it without overwhelming you with with the jargon. Yeah, and really, I just, the relationship with the author is the most important thing to me, so I get very clear on your intentions, what you're wanting to do with the story, your why for writing, and then supporting you in reaching your goals. Ah, I love that. That must be why we're friends. Yeah, that's, that's exactly, that's exactly right, is, you know, what does the author want? And at the end of the day, it's not really just about what. what's correct or what. These are all tools. These are all methodologies and they are all just one more thing that you can evaluate your story by. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much, Joanne. Thank you, Susie. Awesome. It has been a blast. Thank you so much. Thanks for tuning in to Show Don't Tell Writing with me, Susie Vidori. I'll be continuing to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or planning to write. Please consider subscribing to this podcast and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you're listening. Also visit suzyvidori. com forward slash newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list, where you'll stay inspired and be the first to know about upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community. If you're feeling brave, check the show notes and send us a page of your writing that isn't quite where you want it to be yet for our show don't tell page review episode. Remember, that book and your writing is going to open doors that you haven't even thought of yet. And I can't wait to help you make it the absolute best. If you're feeling called to write that book, keep going. And I'm going to be right here cheering you on. See you again next week.